Heather Stang: Amanda, guess what?

Amanda Palermo: What?

Heather Stang: This is our last episode in the series where we walk everybody through the mindfulness and grief system.

Amanda Palermo: It's amazing. It's amazing.

Heather Stang: I feel like even though technically I created the system, I have learned so much- Mm... just by talking to you, just like I do when I'm working with clients or teaching other grief therapists.

Heather Stang: This work, these practices are very much alive

Amanda Palermo: I feel the same way, and I feel like I've learned so much too

Heather Stang: So if you're listening to us for the first time, feel free to go back in time and find our first episode, which is called Grief Step by Step, where we talked about why you even would want to have a framework to work through something that is so uniquely yours.

Heather Stang: And as we arrive at today's episode, we are now on step eight, which is called

Amanda Palermo: Perpetual Mindfulness.

Heather Stang: Yes. Perpetual Mindfulness. Because just like love doesn't end and grief doesn't end, the practice of mindfulness isn't something you just learn and then you're done. You keep applying it. You start to embody it.

Heather Stang: Eventually, for some of us, it becomes second nature, and even if you wind up straying from the practices, they're always there for you when you're ready to come back

Amanda Palermo: I can't believe how fast this has gone. Doing, recording each episode and going through the system and re-learning it again. It's been an opportunity to relearn all the steps in the system again, and it's gone by really fast.

Amanda Palermo: So to arrive at the last one is just... It feels so... It's just so wonderful. It was great for me on a personal level to just go back and to revisit each one of the steps. And I found that in this process of recording these episodes with you, I feel like I was thinking about each step often when we would record and we would talk about it.

Amanda Palermo: And then it would stay with me and I would think about it. So it's, was great. It's been great.

Heather Stang: And you've so generously shared your story of love and loss around your mother mostly, and also- .. your father. And I want to just express my gratitude. And I know I've heard from many listeners their gratitude on hearing your very personal experiences and how these practices, mindfulness, journaling, movement, self-care, continuing bonds, all these things have helped you.

Heather Stang: And so here we are, step eight, perpetual mindfulness, which is really what does this look like day to day? That's part of it. How do we apply our mindfulness practices when we need to get up, we need to go to work, we might have kids to take care of. We have struggles that aren't related to grief, struggles that are related to grief.

Heather Stang: That's one piece of it. And then another piece of perpetual mindfulness is recognizing that there are going to be more grief waves down the road. And so even if you're in a period of your life or a season of your life where you feel like, yeah, most days I wake up and of course I think of my mom, my dad, my sister, my child, my brother, whoever it is, and I'm functioning.

Heather Stang: And then all of a sudden a birthday shows up, a song plays on the radio, something happens where you feel like you are bowled over by the wave of grief. That there's nothing wrong with you and that because you have these tools that either you're continuing to practice every day or you can come back to, you're going to be okay So since you're a few years out from your initial loss, how does this idea of perpetual mindfulness play into your life?

Amanda Palermo: I wrote down actually for my notes today, rand this is actually quoted from you, "Return to your tools over time." So what that means for me is I see the system like a circle, and you just circle back, and you circle back, and you circle back. And when you have a system and you have tools, when you're going through a point where you're struggling a little bit and you're having a difficult time, you've got these tools to help you cope- Hmm

Amanda Palermo: and to get through those rough patches. And it's... And I do think that when you're grieving, that you do need those reminders because there's periods where everything will ffeel okay, and then there's periods where you're just sback in a grief wave, and that's the time that you have, you turn to your tools, and you turn to the system, and you go back to it.

Amanda Palermo: Maybe you start from the beginning with conscious relaxation or maybe you go, "No, I think I really wanna... I need to find more courage," or, "I need to find more self-compassion with myself." And it, and I think that you have the tools to actually recognize what's going on within yourself. And for me, it's helped me to just be more present and aware of what's going on with me at a given time.

Heather Stang: And that's where the daily practice comes in because- .. whatever you choose, whether it's sitting meditation or moving your body or journaling, if you're checking in with yourself regularly, you're not gonna be completely shocked. Maybe disappointed, maybe like, "I don't want this." Nobody wants a grief wave.

Heather Stang: And maybe a little surprised if 10 years down the road it shows up. But if you're constantly every day saying, "What do I need today?" And you're being really honest with yourself, that's really important because I can tell you the places I've gotten, and I'm using this term lovingly, in trouble in my life.

Heather Stang: And I'm thinking about in 2019 when I was traveling a lot, talking about mindfulness and grief, doing a lot of training the trainer, but I had a dog who was on palliative care, and my marriage was falling apart. There was a lot of financial pressure in my life. Things were not good. And I was so busy, and yes, I'm gonna...

Heather Stang: I'm admitting it. I've admitted this before. I'm not perfect. I try to have a daily practice and- After this particular experience, I think it jerked a knot in me and made me get really serious about it. But my shingles came back, and I hadn't had that since... My fmy first experience with that is what led me to meditation and yoga.

Heather Stang: When it came back, I was actually really embarrassed, and I didn't tell people about it because here I am, this, the mindfulness and grief person talking about self-care. I'm trying to straddle my real, very real chaotic home life and my heartache over the dog with this professional life that was very busy, and I wasn't checking in regularly at all.

Heather Stang: I was just constantly going and constantly giving. There's I know it's different for whoever you're caregiving for. I was constantly giving, and my body rebelled because there was that lack of honesty and that lack of being attuned to myself. And since then, and throughout my divorce and throughout a few deaths that I've experienced, a few losses I've experienced since then, my practice has been a lot more solid and regular, and that doesn't mean that every time I do meditation, I'm like, "I'm doing great."

Heather Stang: There are times where my daily practice is me sitting there and being like, "I am really hurting right now." And so when we talk about perpetual mindfulness, it isn't about sunshine and butterflies every day because that's just not reality. But it's about having that awareness, "Oh, I'm really hurting right now.

Heather Stang: Do I need to schedule acupuncture? Do I need to go to my therapist? Do I need to phone a friend? Do I need to say no to more things?" And allowing that to be the go-to practice, which is just doing what you need to do for yourself every day.

Amanda Palermo: Yes. Exactly. It does. It helps you to be really present. and also aa lot of self-realization.

Amanda Palermo: You start really learning about yourself and what your own tendencies are. And if so- if you were a particular person that was already very self-aware, I think it just helps you to develop those skills of self-awareness probably more, because that's what mindfulness kind of, is that awareness piece, presence, and being aware of what's happening in the moment.

Amanda Palermo: And it does remind me when I think of perpetual mindfulness, it's a practice. This whole system is something that you continue to practice. And like you said, there's no finish line. There's never gonna be a day where it's like, "I did the mindfulness and grief system and voilà, I'm done grieving. It's finished.

Amanda Palermo: My grief is just gone away." That's, that's not what happens. It's, it helps you to live with the loss and also continue to practice. And I compare that a lot to a yoga practice. It's, it... Because I'm a yoga teacher, and I always look at everything through that lens. I've, I've said that before, and it's the same thing with when you start a yoga practice.

Amanda Palermo: I always like to say to new students, it's not a cure. It's not going to cure whatever is ailing you, but it's gonna give you some tools, and it's gonna help you to cope, and it's a practice. It's never, you're never going to stop doing yoga because your, I don't know, your depression is over. It's, that's not how it works.

Amanda Palermo: It's a constant practice that goes on and on, and it's just something that you continue to work on, and it just gives you those tools. It's something to fall back on. It's a soft place to land.

Heather Stang: And I wanna say 'cause when I think about if maybe a long time ago you'd said to me, "It's something you're always gonna have to do," I might be like, "Oh my gosh, that sounds awful.

Heather Stang: I don't wanna have to always do this." But can't the practice be really joyous? I love my morning meditation. So I wanna switch our tone, right? I wake up, I take the doggy out, I make my coffee, joy right there in a cup, and I sit. And my practice right now, I don't time it. I just sit Until I'm done sitting which is how I do it.

Heather Stang: I'm not saying everybody has to do it. Oh, and I always write down what time I start 'cause I do like to know how long I sat, and some days it's 10 minutes, and some days it's 70 minutes. It just depends. And there's something about because I've been doing it so long that I kinda have a sense of how long...

Heather Stang: I kinda get to this place where I feel I'm done. We don't need to overanalyze it. And then I journal, and my favorite journaling prompt is, "Good morning, Heather. What do you need today?" And that sets my day off. Even if I'm in a cranky mood, it invites me to show up for myself, to speak what I need, and then to try to figure out, how do I get that for myself?

Heather Stang: So that's my daily practice, and then there are other informal practices woven in. Just every time I walk outside, I'm naturally present because I love nature. That's an informal practice. Every time I eat good food, I'm very present. It's ha little harder, I think, to be present when you're having a bad day or you're having a grief wave, but those are exactly the moments that the being present to the pleasurable things have been preparing you for.

Heather Stang: Because even if it's something you want to avoid, you're so used to bringing yourself into the present that at least that muscle memory is there. That's how I experience it in my body. I'd love to hear how your dwhat your daily practice looks like and how it supports you in this idea of perpetual mindfulness.

Amanda Palermo: Yeah. I get up these days very early, and I, the first thing I do is I just wake up and I have a cup of coffee, and I usually, I don't have my phone with me. It's just sitting there and having my coffee and just bbeing, waking up and having just the first thoughts that pop into my head, waking up to the day.

Amanda Palermo: And then it's out with the dogs for a really long walk. If I'm able to take them on a trail or go for a hike, that's great. And again, I don't really have my phone on me, so I get to just be present with nature, like you said, and what's around me, my surroundings, my animals that bring me a lot of comfort and joy.

Amanda Palermo: And that is such a great way to sstart the morning. And then it's time for yoga, and then I get on my mat and I do my yoga practice, and it's always about the same amount of time. And after an asana practice, meaning doing the postures, then I sometimes do a meditation practice or breathing practices.

Amanda Palermo: And that's how I, that's how I practice mindfulness. And some days it's, it's successful, and some days it's a little all over the place. It doesn't really matter. It's just really observations of where I'm at. It's a way of checking in to see where I'm at today. I prac- I practiced this morning, and I was all, my mind was all over the place.

Amanda Palermo: I was not present at all. And that was okay. I was like, it, this is, that's how it was today. That was just information for myself.

Heather Stang: Yeah.

Amanda Palermo: To see, okay, like maybe my mind is a little all over the place today, and I wonder what that's all about. But not get, not being hard on myself. It's just infor- information about where I'm at in the present moment.

Heather Stang: It's like I woke up, today it's cloudy. Today my mind is all over the place. Other days I wake up, it's sunny. Just like some days I wake up, my mind is clear, and then it's the choosing where to place your attention is really at the heart of the practices in a compassionate way. So I wanna shift gears a little, or build on this rather, and the main concept that we teach in perpetual mindfulness, it comes out of Buddhism and it's the, what's called the three refuges of Buddhism.

Heather Stang: And classically it's the Buddha, the Sangha, and the Dharma, and I'll explain what those mean. So the Dharma, as I understand it, are really the teachings, the practice. What you and I just talked about. So when I'm asking people to reflect in a step eight class on what their practices are, they may or may not be tied to meditation and yoga and journaling.

Heather Stang: Someone's Dharma practices might be hiking, like you mentioned, or biking for me is one of mine. It could be... It's really looking at the things that help you with presence, that maybe fill your cup. Maybe they're contemplative, but it's around the teachings and the tools that you have that keep you on the path And that path is the path of compassion is how I see it.

Heather Stang: It's not just presence, right? It's always compassion and self-compassion. So we covered that. The Buddha isn't as much about the historical Buddha, although that's part of it, but it's also about your own inner Buddha, your Buddha nature. And if we wanna pull that out, that's your ability to be kind to yourself, to be kind to others, your ability to have some liberation in where you place your attention, some freedom to understand that I might have circumstances that I do not want, that I do not choose, but that there's probably a place where I can decide how I'm gonna relate to myself in these circumstances, how I'm gonna relate to others.

Heather Stang: And then a really big piece that I find is the most important piece for me, in part because I think maybe I have the other two down a little bit, maybe not. I don't... I'm gonna work this out as we talk about it. But the sangha, which means a spiritual community. And when I talk about 2019 and my shingles coming back and my marriage falling apart, the thing I was not doing during that time was talking to other people about what was going on because I was embarrassed and because I was shaming myself for feeling the way I was feeling because I felt like I needed to live up to some expectation.

Heather Stang: And I feel like if I had reached out to a teacher, a mindfulness teacher or a therapist or someone during that time, that would've probably been the thing I needed that I didn't have. And that's actually what really has been a big shift in my work. Because I have formed deeper professional relationships.

Heather Stang: And by that, when I say deeper professional relationships, I think deeper with, deeper relationships with people who are grief professionals, more friendships with people who understand how hard it can be to walk through this water with others and also take care of yourself So when I'm working with people who are in step eight and I ask, "What's your sangha?

Heather Stang: Who are your people? Who are the groups, the communities that support you?" They don't have to be grief related. It could be if you have an addiction, it could be NA or AA. It could be your church. It could be your pickleball club. It could be a book club. It could be a knitting circle. It could be the guys you golf with.

Heather Stang: It's who are the people that if you tell them, "I am suffering," they are going to be supportive and show up for you. And sometimes they're professionals you pay, also, healthcare providers and therapists, and sometimes they're friends, and sometimes they're even family, and sometimes they're your dog or your cat.

Heather Stang: For me, every day it's my dog, too. So how has that worked out for you if you think about in your few years? What Buddha, sangha, dharma, how do they show up in your life?

Amanda Palermo: The Buddha, I always... I think of that as inner wisdom, and I think through my grief journey, I think about a lot of yoga philosophy. Really, I have to be honest, wwhen my mom passed, it wasn't the yoga, the asana practice that helped me.

Amanda Palermo: It was remembering all the things that I had learned in yoga philosophy that helped me make sense of something that wasn't making sense, that was nonsensical And so that I think about, and that's helped me to have more of inner wisdom about how I can see my mom's death. I think that for me was like a big one, the Buddha.

Amanda Palermo: The sangha for sure. When I, when you mentioned sangha, that's my favorite thing is sangha. I think about all the yoga studios that I've taught at and being a part of those communities, friends with other yoga teachers, forming close relationships with the students. That's all so enriching. It's so beautiful, and I've leaned on those communities in any time in my life that's been difficult.

Amanda Palermo: And then of course, the grief support group, Awaken Grief Support Group. That has been so wonderful to have a group of people to talk to once a week that I can just say how I'm really feeling. I don't have to worry about being judged. I don't have to worry about being criticized. I don't have to filter myself or censor myself, and I think having people just, I know that they understand where I'm coming from.

Amanda Palermo: That is amazing. So I really connect to that, the sangha. And then the dharma is an interesting one for me, and I was gonna have a question for you actually about it because- Maybe I've misunderstood it, but I was oSomeone asked once, it was a yoga teacher, it was in a philosophy class that I was taking, and they said, "What is your dharma?"

Amanda Palermo: And I was like, I didn't understand the question. And they said, "It's your purpose. It's your life's purpose. What are you meant to do?" And I thought, "Wow, that's interesting." And they explained it like it was some purpose that you have in your life that you need to fulfill

Heather Stang: And that's also true

Amanda Palermo: Yeah. So that's what I wanted to ask you.

Amanda Palermo: The wSo when you explained it, I was like, "Oh, that's another way of looking at it." So are those two things true at once about Dharma?

Heather Stang: That's a great question, and I'm gonna say I don't know. I don't know if it's the same word being used in the same way for both or if it's two different-

Amanda Palermo: Hmm...

Heather Stang: things. But I'm gonna go in this direction.

Heather Stang: The Buddha's dharma were the teachings And so maybe that is part of why that word dharma is used for the teachings and also for life's purpose So that will be a question that we're gonna leave open. I could hop on Google right now, but we're recording a podcast and that won't be

Amanda Palermo: good.

Heather Stang: But I've been taught that in those two ways as well.

Heather Stang: Yeah. I never held them side by side. And maybe, again, I don't know if this is accurate or not, but it's how I'm gonna interpret it, our life's purpose isn't just gonna be a one-and-done thing either, nor is learning teachings. And so in some way it's interrelated. My dharma is to help people and to help myself be more compassionate and more at ease with suffering, and that's what the teaching teaches me How's that land?

Amanda Palermo: Yeah, that... Yeah, no, I think that's great because I asked myself this question the first time it was asked to me. I kept, I have continuously asked myself this question periodically in my life. What is your dharma? What is your life's purpose? But I do think that mI think that my dharma is connected to caring for people, being some type of caretaker, caring for people when they need me, helping people in a way...

Amanda Palermo: I don't know yet. See, that's where the... It's like a, not a fully realized thing for me. I agree with you. I think it's always changing and evolving, but I do feel that my purpose is I've been called upon to really care for others when they need it.

Heather Stang: I think dharma's about the path. What's your dharma?

Heather Stang: What path are you traveling? And when we think about Buddha, sangha, dharma as the three refuges, Buddha being your inner Buddha, your inner wisdom, sangha being the people around you, and dharma is that path you take, which teachings, practices, meaning, purpose, all are part of the path. I don't know if there's a Buddhist scholar out there cringing right now from this conversation.

Heather Stang: But in my heart, I feel like the two are so interconnected.

Amanda Palermo: I agree. Because you- I think-

Heather Stang: Yeah.

Amanda Palermo: I'm sorry, Heather, I didn't mean to talk over you. That's okay. I think now that we're, you explained it, I feel that the, they're all connected together, like you said. And I think that kind of the sangha and the Buddha help to define what the Dharma is.

Amanda Palermo: Like you said, it's the path that you're on

Heather Stang: Which circles us back to meaning, and in the original mindfulness and grief system Step six was called meaning reconstruction, which is a principle in grief and loss research. Comes out of constructivist psychology. We've talked about it, I'm sure many times in this podcast.

Heather Stang: And meaning isn't about any one thing in particular. It's what's meaningful to you, what matters to you. It's very wide open. And I used to talk about that as step six. That's what step six was. And then I realized that the entire framework is meaning work. It's all about meaning. Every single step has some sort of meaning inherent in it.

Heather Stang: And I also realized I was missing really focusing in on the relationship with the person who died, and I was like, oh, when I am in step six, a lot of people in class are talking about the meaning of the relationship with the person. And a lot of this system is driven by real-world experience. So it's not just what I came up with, but it's very much grounded in research and talking to real human beings who are grieving and learning from them.

Heather Stang: I don't even wanna say from them. It sounds so separate. From us. Learning from us who grieve. And so here we are at step eight, and we could probably look back at all eight steps and find some meaning and purpose for each one that's very personal to us. And when we're talking about meaning in step one, for instance, the meaning for me in conscious relaxation, where we're regulating the nervous system is I have some agency over my body.

Heather Stang: I can self-soothe. I can show up for myself. I can be the person that cares about me. Little bit of subtle self-compassion in there, isn't there? When I think about the meaning of step two for me, it's I can look at the world in a bigger way. I can see the beauty in the minutiae. I can see that suffering exists, but so does joy So I'm gonna fast-forward us to step eight, where we're talking about perpetual mindfulness What does that mean for us?

Heather Stang: What does that mean for me? What does that mean for you? And of course, each of us is gonna have a different answer. For me, it's very hopeful when I think about perpetual mindfulness. It says I'm going to go through this life that has its joys and its sorrows, and I'm going to have the resilience to withstand whatever comes my way I've made it through this.

Heather Stang: I've made it through many hard things, death and non-death. And while I can't predict exactly what the next hardship is going to be or what it'll feel like or how heavy it'll be, I know I have things I can lean on, and that is the Buddha, the Sangha, and the Dharma, or my inner wisdom, my community, my practices, and my meaning.

Amanda Palermo: I think for me it's, it's resilience If that's really what I think about with this step is about resilience. Because when I go back to the beginning, if I think about conscious relaxation and I think about when I started my own wafter my mom died and I started working on this mindfulness and grief system, and I started at number one, conscious relaxation, how I was then, how I felt, I didn't feel resilient.

Amanda Palermo: I didn't feel confident. I didn't feel all those things. But over time, going through all of the steps and then doing it again, and then going through all the steps a second time, and then repeating it a third time, working on this podcast with you and discussing all these things again, it's that building of resilience That's to me what it's really, for me personally, I think what it's helped.

Amanda Palermo: and the co- and cand to build some confidence and security with myself Yeah.

Heather Stang: That brings up a thing that I butt up against often, trusting myself to say the right thing, to do the right thing And not in a performative way. I don't mean that to, in appearances. But even saying and doing the right thing for myself, because again, that's not something that I learned.

Heather Stang: Some people are taught that. Some people learn that self-reliance and that self-trust in their family of origin. I don't have that from a family of origin. But I get it from really going back to that journaling question, "Good morning, Heather, what do you need today?" And then answering it really honestly.

Heather Stang: That has really helped me learn to trust myself better. And when it comes up that I feel like I can't trust myself, then I can question that and say, "Oh, no, you can. You might be making up a story around that, but in reality you can trust yourself. You could slow down. You can pause. You can pay attention.

Heather Stang: You can get curious. You can be present. That's the practice."

Amanda Palermo: I agree with that. And

Heather Stang: I-

Amanda Palermo: I definitely agree with that...

Heather Stang: grief takes so much away from us. Loss takes so much away from us. Not only does it take the relationship on this physical plane away. Now, we know the relationship continues, but they're not here.

Heather Stang: That's so out of our control, and there can be financial changes out of your control. There can be friendship changes. There's, there's so much that grief can completely demolish, and then we're left to look at what's left and what do I do with it, and how do I carry it myself forward? And that is the resilience of which you speak, which, yeah, if I had to come up with one word for what step eight is, you nailed it.

Heather Stang: It is about resilience. And resilience isn't about stopping the things that got you here. It's about continuing to do them. Yes.

Amanda Palermo: Which

Heather Stang: I've gotten to see you do for so many years. And- Oh, I'm just grateful that you've been willing to share it with our listeners

Amanda Palermo: Oh, I appreciate that. I appreciate that.

Heather Stang: Yeah.

Amanda Palermo: I mlove what you said about the trust because that's been a big one for myself, mainly because losing both of my parents, that's... They were like a security system fto, for me or sand a support system, and wthen now they're gone. And I think that was not... I think that was what was so polarizing for me.

Amanda Palermo: It wasn't necessar- It was that I lost my mother, my best friend, but I also think it was I lost the other parent, and now there's no parents. So it made the whole feeling, it was like magnified. And then I felt like I couldn't trust myself. How am I gonna decide to do this, and what do I do about that? And I think it was also, it's been a journey about trusting myself, having to find that trust within myself to do things on my own, to be srely only on myself, and that was like a new skill to learn.

Heather Stang: It's such a big one. I had that with my stepdad, and even though he didn't come into my life until I was 20 or 21, he came in at a time when I really needed him. And this isn't maybe as big of a talk about self-trust as what you're addressing, but it might be an example of what you go through. He had... He was a photographer, and he had a camera, and I've probably told this on The Story before or on the podcast before, and I wasn't allowed to touch the camera because it was a very expensive, really nice camera.

Heather Stang: It was his method of making money. And when he died, I was terrified to touch the camera-

Amanda Palermo: Hmm...

Heather Stang: because I wasn't allowed to touch the camera. And I touched it to move it out of the house because I needed to get his house cleared out and all of that, and it took me four months because he wasn't there to give me the permission.

Heather Stang: He wasn't there for me to say, "Is it okay if I use this?" And even though that's such a small thing, it is- I think easily integrated with what it's like when someone isn't here that provides you with support.

Amanda Palermo: Yeah, definitely. I'm thinking of- You said something that in my mind right now I'm thinking that I probably am still dealing with that, what you just said.

Amanda Palermo: I'm still dealing with that. There's decisions that I should be making and I'm not making them, probably because in some way in the back of my mind I'm having to make that decision solely on my own and I'm afraid to because I don't trust that it'll be the right one.

Heather Stang: I have about five boxes in my basement of his stuff that is stuck in that decision loop, and he died in 2009 and we are recording this in 2026.

Heather Stang: So yes- .. there are things where it's like, okay. And this isn't something that's causing me a lot of hardship in my life. Someone might be like, "She should go talk to a grief therapist about this." This grief therapist says, "It's okay. You can just keep the boxes." It's not like I'm spending $10,000 a month storing them.

Heather Stang: They're in my basement. But it is a heavy emotional lift to decide what do I do with these boxes? And by the way, I'm very proud of myself because when he died it was a huge sprawling rancher full of stuff, and the fact that we've made it down to five boxes is huge. We. Yeah. Me. The fact that I've made it down to five boxes is huge.

Heather Stang: And so I don't know if that's the kind of thing you're struggling with, the whole decisions. It can be decisions about your career, it could be decisions about relationships, it could be about stuff. But it is when you realize I am the one who has to make that decision, it's hard.

Amanda Palermo: Yeah. It's building that trust up in yourself.

Amanda Palermo: Like, trusting yourself is really... I think that you- you've explained it so beautifully, but that- that's something that, you know, II personally am still working on, so.

Heather Stang: Do you think mindfulness and yoga philosophy move us in the direction of self-trust?

Amanda Palermo: Yes

Heather Stang: That's

Amanda Palermo: the point,

Heather Stang: isn't it? Definitely. Yeah.

Amanda Palermo: Yeah, for sure.

Heather Stang: Yeah. In Phoe- Phoenix Rising Yoga Therapy, which I'm, is my yoga lineage, Michael Lee, one of the sayings he had is, "Everything you need is already inside." Very yoga. We also had another saying, "Shift happens."

Amanda Palermo: Yeah. I've heard that one before. Yeah.

Heather Stang: Yeah. I don't think we made that one up, but we adhere to it. But yeah, every-

Amanda Palermo: But I think your sI think that your system is a ris reflective of that everything yyou need is walready within you.

Amanda Palermo: We don't realize that sometimes. But then we embark on a yoga practice or we do the mindfulness and grief system, and we explore the eight steps, and that's, and that helps us to really access what's already there inside of us instead of always reaching outside of ourselves for the answer, which I think someti- it, there are instances where it's okay to do that, and it's good to do that.

Amanda Palermo: But the trust happens when we're able to realize that it is within us already And I also wanted to say something about this podcast in particular, why I feel sso happy and so grateful that I get to do this with you and talk about all this with you, is I just feel like Sometimes in our society, death is still something that is, people just don't wanna talk about it, or it's uncomfortable.

Amanda Palermo: And I think that there's still a stigma around death, around grief, around particularly talking about grief. I still notice that. So I, and I think it's so important for people to not feel like iit's okay to feel the way that you're feeling. It's okay to talk about grief. It's okay to talk about the death.

Amanda Palermo: and I think podcasts like this really help people to maybe feel a little bit better about that they don't have to keep it inside.

Heather Stang: I don't have a filter, so it's gonna happen. We're gonna talk about it. I'm one- Yeah... I have to tell you, I'm one of those people that I have a hard time not talking about it Because maybe I'm...

Heather Stang: It is what I do for a living. And also because of exactly what you said, not because I feel like I need to be a know-it-all or I need to make everybody talk about it. But if somebody, a stranger, says something to me about... Oh, for instance, I was in Wegmans one night. I was chatting with the person in front of me.

Heather Stang: He was sharing that he worked at the Pentagon. I started talking about how I work with Gold Star families. The cashier starts talking about how her husband was in Vietnam and died of Agent Orange. And we're ha- And so we start talking about death and grief and meaning in the Wegmans at 10:00 at night.

Heather Stang: And it was great. Yeah. It was so great. There are times sometimes where somebody will bring something up and I might say something and then they back away. But it's, it feels connecting for me. I don't wanna force it on anybody, and if somebody backs away I can tone it down and... But you don't have to be completely, ias my teacher, my thanatology professor, Dr.

Heather Stang: Terry Martin, used to say, you can talk to somebody about something without hitting them over the head with a hammer. There's that. Right. But if somebody wants to talk about their loss and we're in the middle of the Wegmans, I feel so connected to that person because I wanna talk about my losses. In that case, I started talking about Tom, my stepdad, who was a veteran.

Heather Stang: And so it's just- So helpful. You and I, we're weaving, the past few minutes we've been weaving in and out of Buddha, Sangha, Dharma. Like, it's all interconnected too. Yeah. When we were talking about self-trust, that's... Part of that is Buddha nature and part of that is Dharma.

Amanda Palermo: Yeah.

Heather Stang: So I hope that if you're listening, the home practice, the journaling practice I would give you in this class is to take a piece of paper and make three columns, and in one column is to reflect on your inner wisdom.

Heather Stang: What do you know? What do you know to be true about yourself? In the second column is who are your people, paid and unpaid. Friends, family, even people you've never met, like a podcast or a book, although those can slide over into dharma a little bit. And what are the teachings and the practices and the resources that you have?

Heather Stang: That's the other column. And to have that handy because when you are going through acute grief, it's hard to remember. And if you're having a really rough day, having that list of people you can call on your refrigerator will decrease the cognitive load of having to remember it in the heat of the moment.

Heather Stang: By the way, I always picture my ideal griever's refrigerator has got a list of-

Amanda Palermo: Ssticky notes...

Heather Stang: crap. It's got sticky notes. And I always say your fridge. Maybe it's your bathroom mirror. Maybe I should do a little meme of this, but it's having these things written out and where you can see them. A list of your go-to calming practices.

Heather Stang: A list of people you need to call. Your compassion, self-compassion mantra. And just having that all in one place where you can look at it and be like, "There it is." There's another practice that I have inside Awaken. I don't know if you got to do this, Amanda. We haven't done it in a while. I'm gonna have to put it on the schedule.

Heather Stang: Your grief toolbox, and we actually physically get, everybody gets a basket or something like that. Somebody else, somebody in group brought a laundry basket. And you fill it up with physical things that bring you comfort. Squishmallows, blankets-

Amanda Palermo: Oh...

Heather Stang: chocolate. If you have a pet, don't leave that chocolate where they can get it.

Heather Stang: Someone wanted to have a memory of their, remind them of their playlist that lifted them up and so- .. they printed out a little QR code and put that in there. Some tea. And you just have this basket of- Mm... things that you can go to when you're feeling a grief wave come, and you can pull something out of there.

Heather Stang: So that's another practice you can do here too, because now you got-

Amanda Palermo: Well, put that on the schedule 'cause I haven't done that one yet.

Heather Stang: Yeah. That

Amanda Palermo: one sounds good. Yeah.

Heather Stang: I feel like it's been a year and... I'm thinking back to who was in the group when we did it. It's been a minute, so that is coming up. That's gonna have to come up.

Heather Stang: Yeah.

Amanda Palermo: That's a good one. It- That sounds fun. It- That sounds really fun.

Heather Stang: It is. Yeah, grief isn't, grief itself isn't fun, but sometimes the practi-... the exercises we do are. And that's one of them. It can be a book. Well,

Amanda Palermo: what's nice is that you're doing it again. It's when you're doing it, what makes it fun is that it's with community, right?

Amanda Palermo: That's the fun part because you're sharing your bas- whatever your stuff is, and it's wonderful to see what everybody else in the group, it does. And it's just like sharing. It's sharing in community, and that can be... That's very healing.

Heather Stang: Yeah.

Amanda Palermo: Very healing.

Heather Stang: Our sangha, our spiritual community. Iit was hilarious- Yeah

Heather Stang: though because I have a picture of a sample one, and it's a basket that's probably a foot by eight inches. It's not big. And then someone just brought in a wshe's like, "I got a laundry basket because I wanted this blanket in it," and it's just like-... overflowing with stuff.

Amanda Palermo: I feel like mine would be a lot of things too.

Heather Stang: Yeah. Yeah. Now I teach it- But-... a little different. It's get as big. And we start by making a list, and then everybody has a little scavenger hunt around their house. And there might be things you think you want in there that you don't have, and so the homework for the week is to go get those things and put them in there.

Heather Stang: And it's helpful to do this when you're feeling regulated so that it's there when you feel dysregulated.

Amanda Palermo: Yes.

Heather Stang: Yeah.

Amanda Palermo: And I think the question that you asked for the Buddha inner wisdom of what do you know to be true, is that what, how you phrased it?

Heather Stang: What do you know to

Amanda Palermo: be true.

Heather Stang: I think I said, what do you know to be true about yourself?

Amanda Palermo: About yourself. I think that is such a great question to ask yourself because I particularly have a tendency to ruminate and create stories about myself, or that self-talk, negative self-talk, or things that I'm really afraid of. And if I ask myself, what do you know to be true about yourself, it really helps me to be- get back to reality.

Amanda Palermo: What is really true- Yeah... right now? Is this true about yourself, or is this like a story that you've somehow made? and that's also a good journaling exercise to do.

Heather Stang: Hmm. Maybe I'll give that to class this afternoon. We have meditation and journaling class. Yeah. Thank you for just helping me plan it.

Amanda Palermo: Yeah. You're

Heather Stang: welcome. Amanda, thank you as always for- Oh, thank you... sharing your very wise experience, both professionally and personally. And I'm so excited that you've agreed to stay on as my co-host.

Amanda Palermo: I'm just, I'm... Thank you for asking, and I'm so grateful. I really am.

Heather Stang: It feels weird that I can't say, "Next week we're gonna talk about this step," because we are at the end of the framework.

Amanda Palermo: Oh.

Heather Stang: And I know also next week isn't right because who knows? We're usually every other week. But I look forward to seeing whatever we come up with next.

Amanda Palermo: Oh, yeah. That, it's a wonderful ongoing conversation. So there's gonna be more things to talk about. And also, people can go back and listen to the other podcasts when they need to, particularly if there's one particular thing that they need in their

Amanda Palermo: Whether it's conscious relaxation or skillful courage, can always go back and listen to those podcasts too.

Heather Stang: Because we keep going through that circle, like you said. It's a circle, not a line.

Amanda Palermo: Right.

Heather Stang: Amanda, where can people find you?

Amanda Palermo: They can find me on Instagram at amandapalermo108.

Heather Stang: Thank you, and we look forward to talking to you next time.

Amanda Palermo: See you soon. Thanks, guys.

Heather Stang: This brings us to the end of today's episode of the Mindfulness and Grief podcast. If you found it helpful, please follow the show and consider leaving a review. It helps others find their way here when they need support the most. Then head on over to heatherstang.com, where you can join my Awake in Grief support community free for 14 days.

Heather Stang: You'll meet with me and other kind-hearted members several times a week, get access to the Mindfulness and Grief course, plus guided meditations, journaling prompts, and more to help you navigate grief. If you are a grief professional or volunteer, you can also learn about my Mindfulness and Grief coach certification.

Heather Stang: I'll teach you how to share the Mindfulness and Grief system with others, and just as importantly, how to walk the talk and care for yourself along the way. I'm so glad you chose to show up for yourself today. May these teachings benefit you and those you love. Be gentle with your heart and come back.